I have a decade old lenovo yoga that still lasts like 40 minutes unplugged. Idunno how much a UPS that can supply a desktop for that long would cost, nor if that’s an embarrassingly short time, but it works well enough for me
UPS systems are generally configured for 90 minutes of operation, depending on the criticality of the system they’re connected to. The best ones are programable and will actually send graceful shutdown signals (when configured to do so) to your server cluster to prevent data loss that occurs during system blackouts. You can emulate this behavior on your laptop with a script that checks battery% every 10-15 minutes, sending a shutdown signal if it falls below a treshhold you set.
Would pulling out the battery (if possible) and running the laptop only via AC be a viable way to prevent unnecessary battery wear?
I remember back when I didn’t have a desktop PC yet I had a crusty old ASUS laptop that was basically at death’s door and I specifically remember just running it on AC alone because the battery was… uh… gone
Some won’t boot without a detectable battery cell. Depends entirely on the laptop in question what the best course of action is. Most newer bios handle charge profiles automatically and will prevent ac related damage but it’s all dependant on how they were designed/made.
It does not matter if the battery is plugged in or not. Far more important is the state of the battery. All LiPo batteries degrade over time. But they can degrade faster or slower depending on the state they are stored in. They degrade faster when at higher charge levels or when stored in hotter environments or if they go through more charge/discharge cycles. Older battery technology also degraded faster in general, new ones tend to last longer in sub-optimal conditions.
Apart from newer battery technology itself battery monitoring and charging technology has also improved. A lot of modern laptops have smarter charging circuitry that lets them stop charging before the battery is at 100%, sometimes configurable in the bios, sometimes controllable via the OS. This can help a lot to preserve the battery life for longer, especially if you leave it plugged in as it spends less time at 100% charge. Older devices also tended to run hotter for longer periods of time, even when idle. Both of these combined with worst battery technology would lead to batteries degrading quite a lot faster if you left them plugged in all the time - hence where the advice came from (note that removing the battery at 100% charge was also not great for it, better to store lipo batteries at 40-60% charge, but it did still save it from the heat of the device) . But when setup correctly modern devices suffer from this a lot less so it is much less important to remove the battery at all - I doubt you would really notice the difference overall on modern systems.
Yeah, that’s about the right time period for my old ASUS LOL. Does that advice still hold up nowadays or is it outdated? Does it apply only to older machines maybe?
Not all batteries are easy to remove nowadays. Also, power management might have gotten better and the battery circuit mostly disconnects when not in use.
Huh? If it can be used while it is charging - which is all laptops since forever - then it will run off the adapter while plugged in. Regardless of the battery state. You cannot charge a battery and discharge it at the same time - if it is charging then power must be coming from anything other then the battery. Epically with LiPo batteries which you cannot continue charging after they are full - doing so will cause them to burst into flames. So all LiPo charging circuits will cut off power to the cells once they reach a desired voltage - weather that is considered 100% (aka once it reaches 4.2V) or at a configurable lower amount.
Their comment was indicating that laptop batteries will be damaged if left plugged in constantly. Which is a thing that can happen with some laptops, and most old ones.
My comment was about how some modern laptops when left plugged in, will charge the battery and then start running directly from the wall-power once the battery is full. They bypass the charging once it is indicated to have a “full charge”.
will charge the battery and then start running directly from the wall-power once the battery is full. They bypass the charging once it is indicated to have a “full charge”.
That does not make sense. Batteries cannot be charged and discharged at the same time - they are either charging or discharging or neither. When a device is in use while it is plugged in the device is being run directly from wall power - and anything left if sent to charge the battery. The only devices that don’t do that is ones that power off while the charger is plugged in - which does not include any laptop that I have ever seen, generally just smaller devices.
Modern laptops have smarter controllers that can turn off charging before the battery is full or when other conditions are met. But none are able to draw power from the battery while the battery is being charged - that just does not make any sense.
Laptops run on “burst” computing profiles in a lot of engineering situations, occasionally this applies to both the thermal design (runaway heatsoak if used at full tilt) but also battery design. I’ve seen several machines that will dip into their battery in addition to the charger to boost performance and dump wattage into the chips beyond what would be available from the adapter alone. I don’t necessarily think it’s good design, but modern battery chems don’t really give a shit about up/down momentary charge cycles. Also the Chem they’re using is not LiPo based as that chemistry while allowing for significant amperage to be drawn, is not stable enough for a laptop that is generally expected not to ignite.
I guess I was lucky my UPS batteries lasted 10 years. The last year their charge capability dropped off fast, and one was starting to bulge. Not Lithium though, just LeadAcid, so more of a leak hazzard than fire hazzard
Note that the battery will generally stop working after a long enough time turned on and powered via AC, but otherwise yeah.
I have a decade old lenovo yoga that still lasts like 40 minutes unplugged. Idunno how much a UPS that can supply a desktop for that long would cost, nor if that’s an embarrassingly short time, but it works well enough for me
UPS systems are generally configured for 90 minutes of operation, depending on the criticality of the system they’re connected to. The best ones are programable and will actually send graceful shutdown signals (when configured to do so) to your server cluster to prevent data loss that occurs during system blackouts. You can emulate this behavior on your laptop with a script that checks battery% every 10-15 minutes, sending a shutdown signal if it falls below a treshhold you set.
That will happen to an actual UPS as well.
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True. The best laptops are the ones that let you set a charge limit in the BIOS.
Would pulling out the battery (if possible) and running the laptop only via AC be a viable way to prevent unnecessary battery wear?
I remember back when I didn’t have a desktop PC yet I had a crusty old ASUS laptop that was basically at death’s door and I specifically remember just running it on AC alone because the battery was… uh… gone
Some won’t boot without a detectable battery cell. Depends entirely on the laptop in question what the best course of action is. Most newer bios handle charge profiles automatically and will prevent ac related damage but it’s all dependant on how they were designed/made.
It does not matter if the battery is plugged in or not. Far more important is the state of the battery. All LiPo batteries degrade over time. But they can degrade faster or slower depending on the state they are stored in. They degrade faster when at higher charge levels or when stored in hotter environments or if they go through more charge/discharge cycles. Older battery technology also degraded faster in general, new ones tend to last longer in sub-optimal conditions.
Apart from newer battery technology itself battery monitoring and charging technology has also improved. A lot of modern laptops have smarter charging circuitry that lets them stop charging before the battery is at 100%, sometimes configurable in the bios, sometimes controllable via the OS. This can help a lot to preserve the battery life for longer, especially if you leave it plugged in as it spends less time at 100% charge. Older devices also tended to run hotter for longer periods of time, even when idle. Both of these combined with worst battery technology would lead to batteries degrading quite a lot faster if you left them plugged in all the time - hence where the advice came from (note that removing the battery at 100% charge was also not great for it, better to store lipo batteries at 40-60% charge, but it did still save it from the heat of the device) . But when setup correctly modern devices suffer from this a lot less so it is much less important to remove the battery at all - I doubt you would really notice the difference overall on modern systems.
You’re mistaken. Laptop cells do not behave in this way or use LiPo chemistries. They’re Lion chems and behave entirely different.
Removing the battery when using AC used to be the advice to prolong the battery life a decade ago.
Yeah, that’s about the right time period for my old ASUS LOL. Does that advice still hold up nowadays or is it outdated? Does it apply only to older machines maybe?
Not all batteries are easy to remove nowadays. Also, power management might have gotten better and the battery circuit mostly disconnects when not in use.
That depends on the age and quality of the laptop. It’s been a while since some started directly running off the cable when the battery is full.
Huh? If it can be used while it is charging - which is all laptops since forever - then it will run off the adapter while plugged in. Regardless of the battery state. You cannot charge a battery and discharge it at the same time - if it is charging then power must be coming from anything other then the battery. Epically with LiPo batteries which you cannot continue charging after they are full - doing so will cause them to burst into flames. So all LiPo charging circuits will cut off power to the cells once they reach a desired voltage - weather that is considered 100% (aka once it reaches 4.2V) or at a configurable lower amount.
Their comment was indicating that laptop batteries will be damaged if left plugged in constantly. Which is a thing that can happen with some laptops, and most old ones.
My comment was about how some modern laptops when left plugged in, will charge the battery and then start running directly from the wall-power once the battery is full. They bypass the charging once it is indicated to have a “full charge”.
That does not make sense. Batteries cannot be charged and discharged at the same time - they are either charging or discharging or neither. When a device is in use while it is plugged in the device is being run directly from wall power - and anything left if sent to charge the battery. The only devices that don’t do that is ones that power off while the charger is plugged in - which does not include any laptop that I have ever seen, generally just smaller devices.
Modern laptops have smarter controllers that can turn off charging before the battery is full or when other conditions are met. But none are able to draw power from the battery while the battery is being charged - that just does not make any sense.
Laptops run on “burst” computing profiles in a lot of engineering situations, occasionally this applies to both the thermal design (runaway heatsoak if used at full tilt) but also battery design. I’ve seen several machines that will dip into their battery in addition to the charger to boost performance and dump wattage into the chips beyond what would be available from the adapter alone. I don’t necessarily think it’s good design, but modern battery chems don’t really give a shit about up/down momentary charge cycles. Also the Chem they’re using is not LiPo based as that chemistry while allowing for significant amperage to be drawn, is not stable enough for a laptop that is generally expected not to ignite.
Well you have have battery profile settings so you could just set it to never charge above 75% and it will last a long time.
Also UPSs need replaced like every 2 years and according to Jim Salter tend to catch fire if you don’t?
I guess I was lucky my UPS batteries lasted 10 years. The last year their charge capability dropped off fast, and one was starting to bulge. Not Lithium though, just LeadAcid, so more of a leak hazzard than fire hazzard